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Topic: How do u define Secular or Secularism? (Read 33 times) |
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confused
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #32 on: July 25th, 2005, 10:46am » |
 
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on June 25th, 2005, 7:28am, didibhai wrote:"Is India secular? "
"Is India democratic?"
And answered NO to both. |
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I beg to differ with you on these points. I did not quite understand the reasonings for your answers. I do understand the frustration because of current state of affairs. I used to think Indian politicians are corrupt. But there is corruption in the western politics too. Study the concept of lobbying in America. It is something like legalized corruption only. Even Kautilya devoted a chapter on his Arthasastra on bhrastachar. You can't get rid of corruption. May be you can reduce it a little. I shall tell you what, even in the most developed countries I have seen people cursing their politicians. See, this is the beauty of democracy. This is called townhall theory of democracy. If you can curse your politician without getting persecuted then that may society may be democratic.
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Shankar_Chakravarti
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #33 on: July 25th, 2005, 4:49pm » |
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on July 25th, 2005, 10:46am, confused wrote:| But there is corruption in the western politics too. |
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Dear confused,
Your post reminds me of a dialogue by Kamal Hasan in HINDUSTANI. Did you see the film?
In America you bribe to get a wrong thing done, in India you have to bribe to get even a right thing done .
Sorry I couldn’t give the Hindi version verbatim, if any body remembers the dialogue, please post.
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Shovon Chakraborty
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #34 on: July 25th, 2005, 8:31pm » |
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I am not so sure about America. If we believe even 20% of what are shown in films made by the independent producers and written by the anti establishment authors then US may be in a similar bad shape. They have been able to put a lid on those just due to their immense economic power. If we have our Bofors, Tehelka and Coffins, they have their Watergates & Hallyburtons. Defence deals are always suspicious. In India, as well as in USA. U can refer to Prodigal Daughter to get an understanding of the US political process. Contrary to the popular belief, US judiciary is also not that clean and has a lot of bias.
And Shankarda, in USA if u have to give 10k bucks for getting a wrong thing done and if that wrong thing hurts my interest, then may be I'll have to pay 11k bucks just to get the right thing done. Isn't it?
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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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didibhai
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #35 on: July 26th, 2005, 8:11am » |
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on July 25th, 2005, 10:46am, confused wrote:| I beg to differ with you on these points. I did not quite understand the reasonings for your answers. I do understand the frustration because of current state of affairs. I used to think Indian politicians are corrupt. But there is corruption in the western politics too. Study the concept of lobbying in America. It is something like legalized corruption only. Even Kautilya devoted a chapter on his Arthasastra on bhrastachar. You can't get rid of corruption. May be you can reduce it a little. I shall tell you what, even in the most developed countries I have seen people cursing their politicians. See, this is the beauty of democracy. This is called townhall theory of democracy. If you can curse your politician without getting persecuted then that may society may be democratic. |
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It is not denied that corruption is not just an Indian phenomena, but the way corruption effects everyday life in India is absolutely unbearable. Grass root corruption tears the very fabric of every day life. US has its share of corruption in high places, but it rarely effect the daily livelyhood of ordinary people, as it does in India. Besides the redress procedure is at least in place and enforced. Since India's independance,
How many senior police officers have been convicted of crime or bribe?
How many politician/bereaucrats/gov't officials etc have been convicted?
We have a tendancy to harbour wrong doers for our self interests, whether in the name of religion or otherwise.
Justice is only for the rich.
However, coming back to the question of secularism and democracy. India will only achieve this when it prescribes to them in their true form of representation, practice, redress and justice without discrimination.
Think of the London bomb blasts, if this incident happened in India, there would have been bloody backlash and many more casualties. Although I am not saying racism does not exist but the fact that rule of law is supreme and enforced is true democracy and secular. The UK gov't will not interfere with religious groups, similarly, although we are free to preach, we do not tread on anyone elses feet either. Whereas, a festival in India becomes so disruptive and chaotic, that it takes away the essence of enjoyment, festival spirit and freedom of choice, as one is forced to be a part of it. That, of course, means that there has to be an understanding partnership between the authorities and its citizens.
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| « Last Edit: July 26th, 2005, 8:14am by Kavita_Gupta » |
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confused
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #36 on: July 28th, 2005, 11:50am » |
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All the circumstances that you have just described above do constitute hinderances to a successfull democracy. However, neigher they are sufficient enough to describe a society as undemocratic nor are they enough to rule it out as secular. It took a few centuries to shape British democracy. All successful democracies have long traditions. Our democracy is only half a century old. Eventualy we will catch up. If you look at India's neighbors and their political scenario it would be apparent what I am trying to say.
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didibhai
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #37 on: July 29th, 2005, 8:42am » |
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I agree with u on both point of being a young democratic nation to the unsuccessful governance in neighbouring countries. What is strikingly frustrating about India is that it has a tradition of 'civil society', rich philosophies, democratic principles are not new to it either. Further, it has the largest pull of literates in the world, 65% according to the last censor, out of which 25% highly educated, from a population of 1.2 billion that is over three times the total population of UK. It's political illness comes from the naivety of its people, and negative action from citizens for a social revolution. The way this country is heading, it will definitely take more than few centuries to change. Shame I won't be around 
Well never know, I could be re-incarnated.
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| « Last Edit: July 29th, 2005, 8:43am by Kavita_Gupta » |
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jesus n judas
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #38 on: April 23rd, 2006, 11:26pm » |
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defining secularism(oops!!) ektu jhokki hoye jabe naki?let us redefine the term.....sob-e to bhulte bosechi.....advani rothe chore ram hochen....it really sucks!!!! 
when will they ever learn ?
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Prithwi
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Re: How do u define Secular or Secularism?
« Reply #39 on: April 26th, 2006, 9:53pm » |
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secular = Person's mentality, one who believes India & Pakistan will merge as a single country in future......IMPOSSIBLE
secularism = Government's mentality, who is preaching secularism and turning a blind eye to terrorism from across the border.......INCORRIGIBLE
secularist = Mentality of people from across the border, who think they can get away with everything and anything...........
Doodh maango ge to kheer denge;
Kashmir maango ge to ********** denge.......
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